Today is the birthday of the kuyshi, accompanist and solo dombyra player, People's Artist of the Kazakh SSR, laureate of the State Prize of the Republic of Kazakhstan, professor Karshymbay (Karshyg) Akhmediyarov (1946-2010).
Those who believe that shertpe-kuy could not develop as well as tökpe-kuy due to Akhmet Zhubanov are mistaken.
Karshy-eke, if we call you the "calling card" of the Kazakh kuy, no one will argue with this. You are one of the few masters who revealed the power and richness of the Kazakh kuy on the two-string dombra. In this sense, your talented contemporaries proudly mention the statesmen who helped them and opened the way for them. For example, did you have a chance to closely communicate or attend a personal meeting with the great Kazakh statesman of the last century, Dinmukhamed Kunayev?
I have never met him personally and I did not specifically ask for it. I remember when the first secretary of the GDR, Eric Honecker, came to Almaty, I was invited to perform a kuy on the dombra. At that moment, I was sitting next to Dimeken and playing. During the performance, our eyes met, and I saw that he was looking at me with a glow in his eyes. There are few people on earth who literally glow with kindness. I think Dimash aga was one of them. Later, when I was awarded the title of "People's Artist", he called me at home, congratulated me and expressed his recognition.
We heard the opinion that at the dawn of the formation of Soviet Kazakh art, our musical culture began with tökpe-kuy. For example, Kurmangazy's rebellious fate coincided with the requirements of Soviet ideology, so he was the center of attention. But the bright representatives of shertpe-kuy, such as Bayzhigit and Tattimbet, did not meet the ideological requirements, as they were noblemen and rich people. Moreover, Kurmangazy's stormy kuys organically fit into the dombra orchestra created by Akhmet Zhubanov in 1934, and were widely distributed. But shertpe-kuy remained on the sidelines and was not allowed on the air. How do you, as one of the best performers, researchers and popularizers of Kurmangazy's work, feel about this opinion?
These are the words of people who do not know history, or if they do, they are not familiar with the history of kyui and its evolution. Who is hindering the development of shertpe kyui today? Since 2001, the Tattimbet Shertpe Kyui Class has been operating at the conservatory. Our curriculum covers kyuis from all regions and all schools equally. However, the kyuis of Kurmangazy, Dauletkerei, and Dina are performed more frequently than others. Why? The reason lies deep within history.
Firstly, these composers were born in the same region—Naryn, where Khans Zhangir and Bokey lived. All three grew up on this land. During the Soviet period, we did not study regional history in close connection with the arts. Yet, this is the place where Pushkin visited, where Pugachev's rebellion flared up, and where his fugitive followers settled.
Secondly, after the suppression of Syrym Batyr’s uprising and the establishment of the Bukey Horde, many Kazakh intellectuals relocated here.
Thirdly, this is the homeland of the Isatay and Makhambet rebellion. It is in connection with these historical events that the famous kyuis of Kurmangazy ("Kishkentai," "Saryarka," "Serper") and Dauletkerei ("Zhiger," "Topan") were born. Akhmet Zhubanov said: "Makhambet's kyuis 'Qairan, Naryn' and 'Zhumyr, Kylysh' are the origins of Kurmangazy’s 'Kishkentai'." That is, thanks to Makhambet’s influence, Kurmangazy became the father of kyui, and Dauletkerei—its elder.
Makhambet, like Abai, was an educated man, fluent in Russian, and created his own school. In Zhangir Khan’s palace, his songs and melodies were widely promoted. Later, they were banned, and his followers were persecuted. As a result, the expression of people's suffering, pain, and anger was conveyed not through words but through kyui, which developed exceptionally well in this region. Such kyuishi as Kurmangazy, Sokyr Eszhan, Abyl, Kazangap, and Dauletkerei transformed Makhambet’s motifs into kyuis.
Thus, in the Naryn region, the art of kyui reached an unprecedented professional level, separating from the song and poetry genres. This was theoretically proven by Kudaibergen Zhubanov. Among the settlers—many of whom were talented people of different nationalities—and among the colonial Russians and other cultures, a kind of "steppe conservatory" emerged. That is why the development of kyui in Naryn at a level comparable to European symphonic music was inevitable.
When we performed Kurmangazy’s and Dauletkerei’s kyuis in the West, we were often asked, “Which conservatory did these composers graduate from?” This was no coincidence.
If we talk about shertpe kyuis, the most complex and majestic among them is Tattimbet’s "Sarzhailau." Can it be considered inferior to the works of Kurmangazy and Dauletkerei? After all, Tattimbet once played alongside Dauletkerei at the Tsar’s court.
All great kyuishi were educated people and maintained close relationships with one another. Meanwhile, some regional kyuis, such as "Aqzhelen," had a light, dance-like character or focused on everyday concerns, remaining within a narrow range.
Thus, blaming Akhmet Zhubanov for the fact that shertpe kyui did not develop as much as tokpe kyui is a big mistake. Kazakh art is unified; it does not compete with itself but is instead interconnected and complementary.
In reality, the division into "tokpe" and "shertpe" limits kyui as an art form. Half of my kyuis are shertpe kyuis. A true master is equally skilled in both techniques.
Those who stir up controversy are actually confined to their own region, unable to play kyuis from other areas, and have not reached a professional level.
For example, Dina Kozhamkulova could play in different styles—shertpe, tokpe, and laktiru. Was she born in Arka or Zhetysu?
Some believe that the entire Western Kazakhstan region is famous for kyui. This is not true. Kyui did not develop in all regions. For instance, in Mangystau, songs and zhyr prevailed, while kyuis were light.
In the western region, classical kyui development was observed only in the Naryn sands and Bukey Horde. Akhmet Zhubanov, though born in the Aktobe region, sought inspiration specifically from Kurmangazy. I always say, “For kyui to reach such depth, the Isatay and Makhambet uprisings had to take place here.”
— Musicologists call you the founder of a new style of dombra playing—a dynamic, stage-ready, and pop-oriented style. Could this lead to the loss of traditional styles? Some say: “Among young people, there are no true masters of tokpe kyui, only skilled note-based performers. Moreover, modern young kyuishi play as if being chased by an enemy. This is all due to the fact that musical schools prioritize orchestral performance over individual mastery.”
What do you, as an experienced teacher, say to this?
What does Kurmangazy's "Saryarka" sound like when performed on a solo dombra, and what does it sound like in an orchestra?! Doesn't an orchestra enliven, diversify, fill with new colors, amaze in a way that one dombra can't? This is where the role of the orchestra is needed. Now 200 dombra players can play "Saryarka" at the same time in the conservatory. For example, on City Day we performed it exactly like that. But it would be possible to gather not 200, but 20 thousand people at the stadium and play "Saryarka" - prepare it in one summer, a dream!
Didn't the Kurmangazy orchestra conquer all of China in the 50s, and in the 60-70s - made the French get up from their seats, showing the world Kazakh culture? Wasn't even the great Dina, born once a century, delighted with the "Kurmangazy" orchestra? A solo dombra is not capable of striking so much. If we do not develop this further, then why are we here at all? Those who shout that "the traditional art of kuy is disappearing" are simply whipping up panic.
What is "naturalness"? Previously, the kuy "Aksak kulan" consisted of 3-4 old parts, but no one would listen to it in this form today. The ancient form is important for science, for history, but not for the mass listener. Time is like the ocean - it washes away the unnecessary. Even to perform the kuys of Kurmangazy and Dina, an orchestra is no longer enough, we have to use modern electronics. Of course, the structure of classical kuys should not change, but the methods of coloring and presenting them depend on the researcher.
Some shertpe-kuys are not suitable for an orchestra, they can lose their value - this is a separate conversation. Now Asylbek Ensepov is working on methods for amplifying the sound of the dombra. Among folk instruments, the dombra is the only one that has retained its natural timbre and colors. You can play any music in any country on the dombra, but other instruments have limitations. They do not convey the sound of the dombra.
Kuis do not disappear, on the contrary, they develop as never before. If we talk about youth, then how are Aigul Ulkenbaeva and Saltanat Kudaibergenova worse than us? There are so many talented young performers in the Kurmangazy, Otyrar Sazy orchestras, in the regions of the country! Their skill is in no way inferior to ours. Of course, city life, civilization makes its own adjustments. We grew up in the steppe, in touch with nature, so modern dombra players may be a little less natural, but in terms of knowledge and intelligence they are not inferior to us.
- In the country, thank God, there are many orchestras of folk instruments. But aren't they all left in the shadow of the Kurmangazy orchestra?
- There are about 20 dombra orchestras in the country - there is nothing like this in any other country. Yes, unfortunately, most people simply copy the Kurmangazy Orchestra. It shouldn't be like this. To change the situation, we need to create a large laboratory of Kazakh music, collect the entire folk music fund, rework it for the orchestra and highlight what is not suitable. While we are alive, we need to use our knowledge. The time has come!
- Kislitsyn's dombras are intended for solo performers. And Romanenko's dombras, adapted for the orchestra, are not suitable for solo playing. Doesn't this affect the public's taste? After all, our ancestors used horsehair for the kobyz, sheep intestines for the dombra strings - is this why we have lost the deep timbre that is heard in Dina's performance?
- Yes, old people used to play small dombras with nine frets and sheep strings, but now they are only needed in museums. Sheep and goat strings break after a couple of days. Nowadays, the Japanese and Germans produce strings from nylon, capron, and even make them from gold and silver for violins. No one forbids you to use gut strings — just put them on and play. But on stage, you will be required to produce sound! Didn't Nurgisa know about sheep strings? If they were needed, he would have said so himself.
Romanenko made the best concert dombras, and modern craftsmen take his instrument as a model. His dombra has a well-thought-out deck, internal structure, and acoustic calculation. If all this were replaced with sheep strings — what would remain? Those who talk about this should first prove it scientifically.
— You have been heading the jury of the "Ukili Baikau" competition for a long time. They say that dombras are judged not by sound, but by design and material — mahogany, walnut, birch. Is that true?
— The time of dombras made of simple pine wood has passed. Nowadays, the instrument is made of expensive wood, as is customary in developed countries, and this improves the quality. The leading countries of the world are not fools - they have knowledge.
Do you agree with the opinion that the concept of "kashagan perne" has remained only in the works of researchers, but has disappeared in practice?
- No, this is a misconception. "Kashagan perne" has not disappeared, it is simply only masters can do it. Previously, when 9 frets were not enough, "kashagan perne" was used - these are semitones and their variations. They were used by Dina, Nurgisa, Abiken Khasenov, Magauiya Khamzin. Similar techniques are found in all instruments of the world.
– They say that “Qonyr” by Ɔbiken Khasenov is a kui that Tattimbet dedicated to the death of Kenesary. What can you say about this as an expert in kuis? – In the 1970s, I came across a record with the kui “Qonyr” performed by Ɔbiken. I listened to it day and night. An elderly dombra player even tried to stop me, saying, “Don’t play it, you’ll get arrested.” So I had to present it on stage not as a mourning kui but as a love kui. Once, Akselyu agha noticed that I played it with some changes and reprimanded me. I just smiled and replied, “Times are like this.” Later, in my performance, “Qonyr” spread worldwide. In the USA, Europe, and Asia, to captivate the audience, I always played it first. Through “Qonyr,” I drew attention to the art of kui.
I often spoke with Ɔbiken's wife. I don't know about Kenesary, but there is an opinion that Ɔbiken dedicated this kui to the death of Saken Seifullin. If it wasn’t Ɔbiken’s own kui, Magauiya Khamzin would have said so. According to Glinka, although the foundation of “Qonyr” is folk-based, its melody is the work of Ɔbiken. For example, if there had been no Sugir, there would have been no Tolegen, and if not for Tolegen’s mastery, Sugir would not have been recognized either.
An example? The kui “Baizhuma” by Kurmangazy was masterfully performed by Uaqap, which led to the kui being attributed to him. Later, Rustembek Omarov solidified Dina’s name as the author of “Baizhuma.” Dauletkerey’s kui “Baizhuma” was arranged by Nausha. Around 80 kuis of Kurmangazy have reached us thanks to Dina and Uaqap Kabigozhin. True masters do not argue about the authorship of a kui. Disputes arise among narrow-minded people fixated on regionalism and clan identity.
Nurgisa agha openly said in public: “Qarshyga, I am not jealous of you for ‘Aqqu’.” If it weren’t for me, would “Aqqu” have become known worldwide?! The same applies to “Qosbasar” and “Bozingen”: the foundation was created by Sugir, but the kui was developed by Tolegen Mombekov. That is why it is right to mention both. In reality, they have completely different styles. We knew Tolegen; he was a bright and divine person.
– Have the discussions subsided about “Akhmediyarov appropriating Makhambet, attributing his own kuis to him, and altering the poet’s kuis through his ‘interference’?” – These are claims made by “theorists” who cannot play kuis themselves. Eleven kuis of Makhambet, in my performance, were released on a CD, and all of them are the poet’s own kuis. These words come from those who do not want to recognize him not only as a batyr and zhyrshy but also as a kuishi. Previously recorded kuis were damaged, their tapes torn. Later, the kuis preserved among the people were collected. Therefore, the structural changes necessary to restore their original power are natural. There is a science of transcribing kuis into notation. Kui is not just sound; it conveys the heart’s emotions and the waves of the soul. No matter how we arrange it, the essence, theme, content, and melody of the kui remain intact.
– The anthology of Kazakh kuis “Mangilik Saryn” has been released as a CD. Have all kui schools and their outstanding representatives been included? Are you satisfied with the level of performers? – This is a great endeavor, but there are many shortcomings. Unsuitable performers should not be included, especially instead of previously recorded great masters. For example, in 1934, there was a major gathering where all the outstanding folk performers were brought together. The same high standard should have been applied here. Some performers are disappointing. They devalue the art. This level should feature masters of the caliber of Rysbay, Ɔbiken, and Magauiya. Of course, thanks to the elders from the villages, but when people get included in such recordings through connections, it damages the art. This is not only my opinion; the people who listen to kuis think so as well.
– A Grand Organ Hall has opened in Astana… – I understand your question. You want to ask, “Do Kazakhs need an organ?” Organs exist in every country in the world; why shouldn’t we have one? Kazakh G. Nesipbayev has mastered the organ and even teaches an organ class. We should be proud of this! The USA has over 200 symphony orchestras, whereas Astana only recently established a state symphony orchestra. Without such an orchestra, who will perform the operas of Mukan Tolebayev and others? The piano exists in all cultures and is placed in kindergartens and schools. Young people should not be limited to only national instruments; they must be familiar with world music. Only by becoming acquainted with global masterpieces can we develop our own music. If I do not listen to the organ, how can I develop kui? All of this is part of the steps toward advancing our national music.
– Do you plan to hold a solo concert on a grand stage? – I held my anniversary concert when I turned 60. Due to health reasons, I don’t travel frequently now. If the audience requests it, if there is a proposal from the Ministry of Culture, if an invitation comes, I am ready.
– By the way, speaking of health. Does your kidney transplant from China function properly? – My survival is, first and foremost, the will of Allah, and secondly, the merit of Imangali Nurgaliuly, who was then the akim of Atyrau region. I will always be grateful to him. I am still amazed by the coincidence: at the very moment I was undergoing a kidney transplant in China, Nursultan Nazarbayev was holding a meeting with the Minister of Defense of China. Whether this date was prearranged or just an incredible coincidence, I do not know. I still periodically travel to China for check-ups.
– Thank you for the conversation!
Interviewee: Töregali Tashenov
Newspaper “Aiqyn,” No. 84(780), 12.05.2007
